Scottish AI Alliance

View Original

New podcast: Scotland a Digital Nation

Steven Scott

Scotland’s Vision to be a Digital Nation

In this episode of Turing's Triple Helix we look at three national strategies which aim to realise Scotland's vision to become a digital nation. 

We were joined by representatives of the three key government initiatives driving this change. 

Guests: 

  • Mark Logan, Professor at the School of Computing Science at the University of Glasgow and author of the Scottish Tech Ecosystem Review

  • Geoff Huggins, Digital Director for The Scottish Government representing the national digital strategy named: "A changing nation: how Scotland will thrive in a digital world"

  • Albert King, Chief Data Officer at the Scottish Government representing Scotland's AI Strategy

Host

  • Steph Wright, Head of the Scottish AI Alliance Support Circle

See this content in the original post

Links

The Strategies

Events mentioned

Transcript

Steph Wright (SW): Hello everyone and welcome to the latest episode of Turing’s Triple Helix, the podcast channel of Scotland’s AI Strategy. The topic of today's episode is Scotland's vision to be a digital nation. I'm Steph Wright from the Scottish AI Alliance and today I have with me three guests representing the three key Scottish Government initiatives working together to realise this vision.

So today we have Mark Logan who is the author of the Scottish Technology Ecosystem Review published in August 2020. We have Geoff Huggins Digital Director for The Scottish Government representing the National Digital Strategy named ‘A changing nation: how Scotland will thrive in a digital world’, launched in March 2021. Last but not least, we have Albert King Chief Data Officer for Scotland representing Scotland's National AI Strategy (Trustworthy, Ethical and Inclusive) also launched in March 2021.

Hello everyone, thank you for joining us.

Mark Logan (ML): Hi Steph.

Geoff Huggins (GH): Hello.

Albert King (AK): Hi.

SW: Fantastic, we have a series of questions here so we'll just kick-off. You each oversee work to deliver a key strategy; can you give us an elevator pitch on why Scotland needs the one for which you're responsible? We'll kick off in chronological order so we'll go with Mark with The Scottish Technology Ecosystem Review.

ML: Thank you Steph.

So the Scottish Technology Ecosystem Review is essentially saying that we have a pretty good Tech Ecosystem in Scotland but it could be a lot stronger. It seeks to highlight the interventions we can make that can accelerate that ecosystem to what we call a tipping point where there's a sufficient critical mass of start-ups and scale-ups that certain virtuous network effects start to operate; attracting talent, attracting investment, strengthening our companies, creating more companies, which attracts more talent and investment. The purpose of that document is to almost underpin every other initiative in the stack if you like, so the reports that Geoff and Albert have authored can be considered as two layers in that stack. Layer one is the foundational components that the ecosystem review attempts to establish to help support no particular sector but in fact all tech sectors. So that's the kind of reason for its existence.

SW: That's great, thanks very much Mark. And over to you Geoff around the Digital Strategy.

JH: I think the key element of the Digital Strategy is the focus on the role of digital as part of the delivery of public services. So a key set of actions there; the relationship of digital also to economic development and the capability to support the economy and economic growth and there's a big reach into Mark's review with that. Then probably the third main area which I’d emphasise is the work on digital inclusion and we'll probably say more about that as the podcast goes on. But this understanding that in the context of the last 18 months to two years, that the centrality of digital has become to people's lives and the need, therefore, to bring people onto digital platforms and things like Connecting Scotland and work around digital inclusion are central to that. So probably the key three themes that I’ll bring out in respect to the strategy.

SW: Brilliant, thanks very much Geoff. And on to Albert…

AK: Well, I guess building on what Mark and Geoff said that Digital Strategy and the Tech Ecosystem Review really address the digital data and innovation ecosystem that we need for AI and data-driven technologies to thrive in Scotland. The AI Strategy is really focusing on the issues that are unique to AI. As we developed the strategy it became clear that people in organizations in Scotland do have concerns about how AI might affect them but it's also really clear that they're optimistic about the benefits that it can bring. And after all, AI is here and it's becoming increasingly pervasive so it's not like it's something we can choose to ignore. So Scotland’s AI Strategy really addresses the issues about how we want to adopt these technologies in Scotland and the ways in which we'll do that to maximize those benefits for society the economy and the environment.

SW: Thank you very much all. Moving on, all three strategies were developed and published during the COVID 19 pandemic, how was the development impacted by this, and how was the final product shaped to address the challenges of COVID? Over to you Mark.  

ML: Only slightly, is the answer to that question Steph in the sense that the strategic issues that I was addressing in that ecosystem review existed before COVID and will exist after COVID unless we take certain foundational actions.

There were of course certain influences, a significant one being what will the working configuration turn out to be after COVID. Will it be hybrids in the office, or not in the office, but that's a relatively minor concern as regards to the issues we're trying to address in the ecosystem review. For example, the supply of talent into ecosystems and schools and universities, the education and peer learning environment that founders have available to them in our StartUps, availability of investment, etc. These are all issues before, during, and will continue after COVID. I think the biggest impact COVID had was on my ability to actually write the report. It gave me a little bit more continuous time, a few less meetings, a bit less traveling, which allowed me to write the report fairly quickly over the summer. I think it was kind of mid-May to the end of June the report was basically written and then went through review and socialization so the biggest influence I think was just getting space to do it but strategically speaking COVID didn't have a major impact on it.

SW: Thanks Mark, and over to you Geoff. I mean during the COVID pandemic obviously, access to digital became a very prominent issue for a lot of people so it'd be great to hear your thoughts on this question.

GH: That's probably where I’d start in that there are probably some elements of the strategy which are different as a consequence of the experience of COVID, but it's probably more of the significance of digital changed. It became a pivotal component of everybody's day-to-day life. We all spent our time like we are doing right now in front of the screen talking to people who were themselves sitting in front of a screen. But equally we moved to a situation where our shopping was being delivered online where we were organizing other forms of support services online to help vulnerable people to continue to live their lives so our world was transformed and it still is transformed. How many elements of the strategy are different as a consequence of that? So it's ramped up the significance of digital inclusion as an element, it's increased the appetite for a change and in the pace of change. Also, in terms of as organizations developing digital products a greater expectation that there's a strategic narrative a strategic approach so we understand that citizens and individuals won't just being engaging with one service or system but multiple systems and they expect to increasingly operate in a coherent way again. Their options to do these things face-to-face have changed so probably some nuance elements in terms of content but significantly changed in terms of its position as part of wider government policy so it became more important.

SW: Thanks very much Geoff and over to you Albert around the AI Strategy.

AK: The pandemic definitely affected the approach we had to take to develop the strategy and a lot of that was because of the timing and we very much committed to putting people at the heart of the AI Strategy. That meant a strong emphasis on meaningful engagement across Scottish industry, academia, the third sector, and importantly with the public as a key part of the approach we took to developing the strategy. So we had to pause, but ultimately we were then able to actually engage with a much wider cross-section of communities in Scotland and get a much stronger level of public engagement we saw really high levels of response actually for example to the public consultation we did and to the open events we ran. I think that led us to get a much stronger level of engagement with the public and certainly the feedback we've had has been fantastic. The way I would illustrate that; I was speaking to representatives of Nordic countries the other day they've been really keen to learn from the approach that we took to developing the strategy they see it as an exemplar of this space so that that's been really exciting. In terms of the content of the strategy, I think there's possibly some impact but I think we were always landing the strategy into a space where there's significant movement of technology and public attitudes so that the uncertainty that COVID brings really just adds to that and so the strategy was deliberately set up such that we set out the outcomes and created a strategic framework within which we're able to adapt the actions we actually take guided by things like the vision we have, the principles, and indeed the leadership that we've established.

So definitely the development of the strategy was impacted but I think we ultimately turned it to our advantage I'm pleased to say.

SW: Thanks very much Albert moving on to the next question. Perhaps this will be targeted at Geoff and Albert primarily. The AI and digital strategies were both published after the Scottish technology ecosystem review, how were they shaped by the review’s recommendations?

GH: I guess just to start and maybe slightly controversially I’d probably say maybe not enough. So the ecosystem review is a really interesting document in that it understands that if you want a particular change to happen in the real world it's not a matter of simply saying that you want change or taking particular actions, you need to do a number of things. You need to change the context so there are elements of that in the Digital Strategy in terms of the focus on capability, the focus on the tools, and skills around transformation. In terms of thinking about how we orient public services but, that understanding that if you want to do an important but difficult thing well you need to understand all of the dynamics of what's going on within the system and align those different ingredients in such a way to incentivize and motivate change. I think that more of that learning could have been brought into the strategy part of our current thinking so I think we could have taken more from the ecosystem review which as I’ve said is a great document and unlike the sort of documents that governments normally produce.

SW: Over to Albert.

AK: I sort of said in my opening remarks that because of the timing of when the tech ecosystem review was produced we certainly paid a lot of attention to it and thought really carefully about it because you know provides that really clear articulation of the innovation ecosystem and the actions we need to take to further strengthen it here in Scotland. Of course, I hope everybody will agree that within that AI and driven technologies are definitely going to play a really important role not least actually because of the sheer range of applications. These are kind of a horizontal set of technologies that have a real breadth of applications. There may be, slightly controversially again perhaps, specific sectors where there's a case for strategic support, where we sort of tried to pick some winners. There's an example of that in the program for government commitment to create an AI life sciences hub, and that's maybe an example of that but fundamentally I think actually we're about creating the conditions in which innovation can thrive, in which AI can thrive and looking at which sectors and which applications Scotland can see a particular competitive advantage in, spotting those and fostering the development technologies importantly which citizen can trust and are really confident in using as well.

SW: Thanks Albert and sorry to just to flip it back on Mark do you have any reflections on what Geoff and Albert just said?

 ML: yeah absolutely, I agree with both Albert and Geoff's comments. The ecosystem review was deliberately written to avoid being in any way sectorial or technology-specific not because that isn't important but because it was operating at a different level in the stack. Just as it was expressed by both earlier speakers it creates a kind of foundational system view of our ecosystem and suggests foundational interventions that can strengthen it but that is not enough on its own. It's helpful in general terms but it's vital that we then look at the sectors and technologies we want to be strong in as a country and develop level two recommendations as indeed Geoff and Albert have. So really the three reports are much stronger together than they are apart. I think the trick in implementation is to really amplify that, the sum of the parts needs to be much more than the individual parts. I tried to achieve that effect inside the ecosystem review by looking at, for example, when it comes to attracting talents we can attract talent through concierge service for high skilled talent but we can also attract them through having a tech scaler network and integrated grant funding and these kind of elements. Now if you then move outside that report then we're also really strong for example in AI as a country and we've understood you know every aspect of how that affects society and how to how to create winning businesses in that area that's an even greater attractor. So I think the trick as we go forward is to iterate, notwithstanding the reports were written in certain orders, to iterate across them and ensure that we leverage the good work in all three of them.

SW: Thanks very much and the next two questions kind of take us off into a slightly different direction but it's been touched upon by all three of you. So the next question is, how is Scotland well placed to harness the potential of digital and data innovation including AI to benefit our citizens, economy, public services, and society, and how important is it to engage the public as we do so? Who wants to go first? I’m going to throw this at Albert.

 AK: I was talking earlier about the kind of approach we took to developing the strategy and you know public engagement in lots of senses was a really important part of that. So we're carrying forward that sort of open approach into the way that we are delivering the strategy, that's partly through, for example, the way we've set up the AI Alliance. It doesn't just bring fantastic leaders in this space together, but also brings together people from across society through the community circle as well as the kind of change agents through the delivery piece and through our own support team and delivery team and so that is absolutely central to our approach. I think it's particularly important in the context of public services and actually we've got a really great project underway to look at how we provide greater agency and transparency to citizens over algorithmic decision making in really meaningful ways so that they can understand, and have greater agency over that particularly in context of the public sector. But I don't think it's just an issue for the public sector I was at The Data Lab’s excellent Data Summit last week and there was a panel discussion there with innovative AI companies that are doing fantastic here in Scotland today. They were asked what conditions they need to see success in Scotland and the first answer came back - trust and public trust. So I think trust and ethics are our competitive advantage also in the commercial sector and just as much as they are an essential condition in the public sector and so that public engagement around these technologies is really crucial.

SW: And over to Geoff.

GH: I’m maybe going to take a slightly different tack, because I think a lot of the time members of the public are telling us quite a lot about our digital services. They're telling us it's difficult to find things online, or if the processes that we require them to use are difficult to use, if they're clunky they or if they have to create different identities across the system. So I think the point I’d make is at the moment it doesn't feel as though we're particularly responsive to the feedback that we're getting from the public and quite often the engagement we have with the public is to try and persuade them that what we're doing is quite good, whereas in fact, we should probably be listening more to their experience of how they are experiencing the technology that's there. So I think in the next phase as digital services become more the norm, more common, we need to be building those systems whereby we're actually learning from the people using our technology. Whether it's through what we can see in terms of their user journeys through the technology but also the point at which it's failed and they've written to their MSP, or my Minister, or to me to basically say that they're not happy with it. So I think we need to be more in that responsive space and so I’d probably emphasize that in my answer as a challenge for us. While it can feel as though we're up against it, we're struggling, we're working with less money than we want with less resources than we would want, the experience that the customer has, the citizen has, the client has, is their experience and we need to validate that and dignify that so we need to become a more responsive organization to what we're hearing.

SW: That's great and Mark what are your thoughts on this, on the public engagement side of things?

ML: well I think a necessary precursor to public engagement and bringing society along with any one particular sector is to ensure that that all parts of the digital literacy spectrum are being advanced at the same time. For example, at one end of that spectrum, you have individual digital literacy and in the middle of it you've got the digital literacy of our companies, our SMEs etc. and at the right-hand side, or far side, you've got native digital businesses that make native digital products software etc. I think there's a risk for example that that right-hand side runs ahead and is doing some really exciting AI. But we've got a largely digitally illiterate SME base or lower digital literacy individuals and I think if you get into those imbalances then it's impossible to bring people along and because they're ignorant to the technology and its potential they're afraid of it. And you know we've seen what fear can do and all the things that follow from that. So I think when we think about bringing society along with whatever we're doing we have to have strategies and this is what we are trying to do in the three people on this podcast with you today. A big part of trying to do that along with many others but we've got to advance all three sections of that spectrum or the others will pull back, any one of them.

SW: That answer actually leads nicely into our next question which was around the fact that the pandemic has accelerated the pace of digital transformation as Geoff mentioned earlier and reminded us of the social and economic consequences of being digitally excluded how is the latter being addressed by your relevant strategies? I'll go to  Geoff on this one.

GH: So digital exclusion is a key theme of the Digital Strategy with much of the commitment that's set out in the strategy being based around the work of the connecting Scotland program. So by the end of this year, we'll be close to 60 000 additional people brought online through connecting Scotland. From a program that didn't exist two years ago, so a significant undertaking in terms of access to technology, access to connectivity, and access to training. So we have that layer coming into the process and alongside that, we then have the commitment following the strategy and program for government to extend that across the lifetime of this parliament to three hundred thousand households brought online and given that capability. So that almost feels like one layer of the system beneath that layer, we have the work that the connectivity team is doing to extend broadband, to extend 4G, and to move into 5G and again over the period of this parliament, we'll see that further expansion. So those who are excluded because of geography as opposed to for economic reasons also will be brought into that space but that sort of feels like half the job. The other half of the job is the degree to which the systems and processes that we offer actually work for people, so the fact that we can give somebody a tablet or a mobile device or a Chromebook and we can give them a connection if the intention behind that is to engage them in local services such as food services or isolation or local transport the other side of the equation has to be there as well. So this idea of what it means to be a digital citizen in Scotland in 2022/23/24 is going to be a key idea for us, for the next period of time that goes beyond simply giving the citizen a device to actually aligning that with the services which are then available so that they can maximize their use of the device so the use case becomes important. So digital exclusion is one element of this degree to which services are there, to actually meet those needs because historically those who have been digitally excluded tend to be the people who are most likely to be in need of services. So I think there's a lot in the strategy but there's further work to do.

 SW: Thank you and I’m going to go over to Albert because obviously, AI is many steps further than just digital access so over to you for your answer to this question.

 AK: So building on what Geoff has been saying the exclusion is partly about the physical stuff, the technology, was Geoff said we're seeing the devices and connectivity and so forth, but Mark's earlier comments kind of anticipated our thinking here as well. That it's about more than just that, it's about having the skills and confidence to actually use those technologies right. To then improve our lives or to improve productivity in our organizations. That was one of the messages actually that came through really clearly in the development of the strategy around the understanding of AI, in particular, and what it can and can't do and actually some of the myths about that some of the language that's used around AI. There's quite a lot of hyperbole in this space so I mean we have been doing quite a bit of work to develop things like materials for schools and just kind of raise awareness and help people understand as I said earlier what this technology can and can't do as well as engaging in a really active communications program and developing that broader communications piece. I do think we have a role here to help people understand how they can benefit from these technologies and the agencies that they do actually have over how these technologies are used and feel confident in using them in their lives and their organizations. I think that's partly about the learning communication piece and also about the engagement and we are doing some work to look at what engagement mechanisms and what kind of materials will be beneficial as we work with civil societies, we work with educators and others but also how we reach people who aren't in schools and reach every part of our society. There are some great examples from Scandinavia in that space that we're keen to learn from them so I’m confident there is a lot we can do.

SW: Yeah thanks Albert. Mark, obviously in the Scottish tech ecosystem review how many mentions of digital exclusion and digital literacy are there, and what's the review going to do about it as such? How they're going to tackle those issues?

 ML: So the ecosystem review, going back to that spectrum from our last question, the ecosystem reviews is very heavily at the digitally native businesses end of that spectrum so the reports that Geoff and Albert have created are far broader than the ecosystem review so this ecosystem review has to reckon with a special type of exclusion which is exclusion from meaningful participation in the creation of, and scaling of, startups and all the benefits and rewards and experiences that go with that. And it does address a bit of that but frankly doesn't address nearly enough of it, because if you think about what types of exclusion are operating in that space, well we know that when it comes to money flowing to founders one percent from various surveys ends up in the hands of female founders. So there's a huge exclusion operating there if you look inside VSs hardly any of the VSs are representing women in their partner boards so you know not surprisingly you see these kinds of behaviours, these kind of results. Another type of exclusion is that in Scotland today 17% of our schools don't teach computing science at all, and nobody knows how many other schools teach computing science using business studies teachers or other non-specialists. And nobody knows to what extent that is pervading the curricula or is only a token subject alongside home economics and physical education, which many skills that is the case it's vying for time with those. So we're excluding access on a skills basis across many of our schools it's kind of not a random distribution you'll tend to find the schools in better-off areas tend to have better provisions for computer science so we've got a poverty-based exclusion operating as well and if you take those different exclusions through gender-based exclusion, wealth-based exclusion, to number two, race-based exclusion, the amount of funding that flows to ethnic minorities is even worse than the amount of funding that flows to women so what that adds up to is we're cutting off huge numbers of people that the ecosystem needs to thrive and at the same time we're denying individual opportunity to those people in a society that claims to be a fair and balanced society. So the ecosystem review touches and makes recommendations in some of these areas about how to rebalance funding, there's a lot to say, and we're doing a lot and follow-up on how to make education start to work in schools again but frankly, none of us are doing enough in this space and I would like to see Scotland produce a specific report with concrete recommendations in this area. For example, the attitudes in companies towards the massive gender imbalance, that it's kind of normal it's kind of how it should be and if we do something to improve it then we should be slapped in the back for taking some efforts, but it's all optional aspirational. So, I think we've got to change the terminology we use about the issue we've got to denormalize the ghettoization of gender for example in tech so there are a lot of things we have to do and my report certainly doesn't cover the full magnitude of that. I think it was a great opportunity for Scotland to lead in this area and I’d love to see us follow up and actually take that topic of exclusion almost in its own right to create a joined-up cohesive strategy across Scotland for that, because it needs a system response not a point by point response.

SW: Brilliant thanks Mark, and once again it nicely leads on to the next question. All of you have touched on this already but all three strategies set up actions to nurture innovation in digital and economic opportunity, how important is it to create conditions that will foster innovation and how can this contribute towards building a stronger economy and public services? Albert, you mentioned earlier about needing to establish trust and fostering an environment of trust and obviously you know tackling all the issues around exclusion it'd be great to hear your thoughts on this, over to Geoff.

GH: So I think a key component of the strategy is the focus on the next iteration of the work under CivTech. So CivTech has now been going for five/six years as a program of work solving public sector problems engaging with SMEs and technology companies initially in Scotland but increasingly outside Scotland as well. But on the basis that the technology that's developed creates the capability for those organizations to sell products to other jurisdictions and to develop products for further uses. Yet we're not at a point in the process whereby ministers have taken the decision to scale up CivTech significantly over the next three to four years but also to broaden the base of the support that's offered. So it's not a thriving model that nation-states like Scotland can take forward in terms of technology development to create ecosystems. It's a very particular ecosystem which is being created there and still in the developmental phase but it's certainly one of the areas which we need to turbo charge for the next period of time. While I’m talking about it, I should say that the next demo day from CicTech 6 will be on the 8th of February. It will be held in the assembly rooms in Edinburgh, it is a genuinely hot ticket we don't know how many people will be in the room at this stage but it will also be streamed and I’d encourage people to google CivTech demo and to register an interest now if you want any chance of being there on the day. In addition we'll be running further virtual events on the 9th and 10th and you'll see the 12 different companies solving problems around climate change, travel, and transport and see what they've come up with during the period in which they've been running their development cycle.

SW: Thank you  Geoff and great plug for CivTech we'll make sure we'll put all those links in on our website to accompany this podcast over to Albert.

AK: Great plug from Civtech and actually it's another great example of how in the AI Strategy as well we're working with people in the industry to help address some of the challenges that we see in this case around how we give citizens in Scotland greater agency and trust and transparency over algorithmic decision making in the public sector. So that's yet another of the fantastic examples you get to see when you go along to demo day. I think for me I certainly recognize it whether you're public or private sector we operate in the same economy, the same market, the skills, and talent. Moreover both public and private sectors actually I think have really important roles in making our society economically and socially stronger and Civtech is one example of how we're doing that and how we can do that equally. We find innovators in our public services as well and so some of what we're doing in the digital data and AI space is about creating the conditions which actually enable those innovators in our public services for example through our data science accelerator program. Here we've had many great examples of people bringing new approaches, for example looking at how we keep track of crops and agriculture in Scotland and understand the impact of climate change also doing things like launching Research Data Scotland, which happened I think in September/October to improve the economic social environmental well-being of people in Scotland by making it easier to link data about people, places, and businesses to do research for the public good, which is another great example of how we bring innovative new thinking to solve some of those challenges that we face. As well as that I think the public sector is playing its role by making more data open because you know data is the raw material that fuels AI and innovation and that's because it supports transparency as well, but as I say because it can also support that innovation in data-driven companies so we're looking at how we can make more data open and where we need to focus that effort to create the greatest value and that was actually something that came through in the Digital Strategy funnily enough and we're always very keen to hear and to get engagement on that so I think we're absolutely about playing our part to create the conditions and taking care of that activity that we have in the context of AI and data. It is complementary to what's happening across the other initiatives that we're discussing today.

 SW: Thanks Albert and over to you Mark. I mean essentially all the recommendations from this review were about fostering conditions and creating conditions where innovation can thrive. So over to you.

 ML: It's worth just reminding ourselves why that really matters. In simple terms, every job that everybody does in this country is the result of someone's innovation earlier in the chain. From starting a University in 1410 or 1450 to the more recent jobs and the high tech startups and so on and so forth. If you look at the data in the UK as a whole there are about 34,000 young high-growth startups that together account for 84% of all new job creation and that's quite a stunning statistic and together they account for one trillion pounds of value in the economy. So it just reminds us that that we've got to have a thriving, reinventing, evolving base of innovation if we're going to have opportunities for our people I think Scotland has made the mistake in the past of clinging to industries that had long since left our shores and not getting into a constant rebirth mentality of the next wave of what's important. When I look at Silicon Valley, and I’ve spent quite a lot of time there over the years. Before the current wave of technology anywhere near reaches a peak they're tearing it down and starting the next wave and you've got to remember that Silicon Valley started as a semiconductor, a centre hence the name, and went through so many waves of technology on microprocessors, the PC, the internet, the mobile, AI, blockchain and it just continues and Scotland's got to be like that because otherwise, you end up with businesses shutting and nowhere for anyone to go and so innovation's incredibly important. We can't just buy it in as we did in the 1980s with the so-called Silicon Glen, we brought in other people's innovation in the form of big companies like IBM, Motorola etc. As soon as there's an economic downturn they all leave again, and we're left out to dry. So it's incredibly important that we create the conditions for world-class start-ups to grow, to scale, to be born, and grow to scale in this country and it's incredibly important because our children are going to be working in those companies and if we don't put those conditions in place they'll be working in other countries. When I look at Scotland I’m always slightly skeptical of how economists measure these things but you look at an entrepreneurial rate in Scotland, not including just tech but generally, it lags well behind Ireland or Portugal and it's almost a third of Canada’s rate so we've got a lot of work to do there and so that's why I think everything we're talking about today and the three reports together are incredibly important.

SW: thank you very much we've covered quite a myriad of topics here so just pulling it all together on our last question. With so much going on what's being done to ensure that collectively the three programs add up to more than the sum of their parts? How do they fit into a bigger picture and what can we look forward to next? I’m going to start with Geoff on this one because the Digital Strategy can perhaps be seen as a kind of umbrella strategy to the other two.

GH: I think it's always a challenge to ensure that we are leveraging the value across a number of different activities. It's easy to stay in your lane and to deliver on the particular commitments that sit on your docket, so at the moment I’d probably say we're probably not doing enough. I'm fortunate I sit on the group that's supporting Mark's work so I’ve got good visibility of the work that's going on there and as I've said before we're learning from the thinking in that space about maybe resetting our expectations about how we change, how change happens, but at this stage, I think there's probably more that we could be doing to draw the connections between the pieces of work as well as other developments such as the Research Data Scotland work and other elements of the change process. So at this stage, I’d probably say we're not doing enough, I think we're all making progress but it's that challenge of finding the additional time to build those linkages and to build the relationships that support them.

SW: Thank you and over to Mark for I guess a non-government perspective before heading over to Albert.

ML: I think Geoff is absolutely right and what he says is we could be doing more. I’d frame that as an opportunity rather than a problem and what I mean by that is because you can think of the different areas that we're respecting or looking at as different layers in a stack, to some extent if we only executed those in isolation which we're not going to do, but if we only did they'd still benefit from each other's existence. The foundations of the ecosystem review would support Geoff and Albert's work and Geoff and Albert's work would act as a magnet for talent into the ecosystem

because of the specializations and the society that would be created, as you see in Estonia for example which is a great example of a digital society from startups through to individual digital literacy, you know that's where we're going to go if we follow through. I think then the opportunities are how do we cross-work and explicitly amplify some of those connections so that there's work to be done there and I think it's also important to remember that in each of the respective areas because of the nature of creating reports and the limited nature of it, none of them are the last words in these areas and we're all very conscious of that. No one's going to read a 400-page report so you release them in 90-page chunks. So, for example, if I take my own area and you're trying to widen that layer one stack, things I’d love to see is we're currently implementing those recommendations and that's going to take time but I’d love to see us even generalizing the scalar network from being tech scalers into general startup scalers. I’d love to see us take those into the community so it's looking like a pre-scaler network so we can create ramps for people coming out of colleges into the startup world, I’d love us to take on gender exclusion in tech and really take it on,  for example, so I think there's a lot we can do with the platforms we're building. Therefore, if the government, I would say this as a non-government person, if government keeps its focus on this area and that's hard in democracies because you know everything's measured in four and five-year windows but these changes will be over ten years, but if the government can keep its focus so that we can get these platforms in place and then build on them I think we're going to do amazing things together over time. So yeah I'm pretty excited about that.

SW: Last but not least over to Albert.

AK: well to quote Mark Logan who recently said we're stronger together than we are apart I completely agree. These initiatives really compliment each other nicely and you know continuing to keep that in view that we're working to a common set of goals to benefit Scotland I think is really important. I guess that requires us to make those maintainers connections not just at a strategic level, which I think is important, but also an operational level and sometimes as well to focus on particular opportunities and there's a good example of that around skills digital and data literacy and the work we're doing just now actually to look at what's happening across because there's lots of work going on in that space and to look what's happening across digital data skills and whether there are gaps we actually need to address or actions we need to take to strengthen that or to make some of those connections stronger. In terms of what's next, we'll be launching our AI playbook in the new year which will showcase a lot of the innovation that's in Scotland. It'll engage people to see how they can use AI and inform people with advice and guidance on adoption and I will give a plug for our event which is on the 30th of March 2022, an even hotter ticket than the CivTech demo day, you can come and enjoy an AI Summit so I’m very much looking forward to that in the new year.

SW: That's brilliant yeah that kind of preempted my final call for who wants to plug something you have a few seconds to you know do a shout out for something so Albert's obviously shouted out for the Scottish AI Summit on the 30th of March 2022, Geoff has shouted out for the CivTech demo day on the 8th of February, Mark is there anything you want to draw our attention to?

ML: I’m afraid I don't I have come to this podcast without an event to plug so sorry for that.

SW: That's no problem, that leads me to say thank you so much for your time I hope now our listeners would have a better understanding of all three initiatives after listening to this and obviously you know we can post all the relative relevant links to all the contacts and all the initiatives that we talked about today so people can find out more but thank you so much for your time and have a good evening everybody.